Interview with Don Anejlino (ca. 50 yo)

A: Now let's pass to Ch'auch'a Kullamarka. Well, the Ch'auch'a of Kullamarka was in 1943, in that year they burned it. They'd burnt it in 43, the year of 1943. No, no, no. I'm wrong, in 34, in the year of 1934. They say that Ch'auch'a Kullamarka was a pueblo pueblo, with a church and a great parish. They say it was there where the fathers, the priests existed. Priests, notaries, corregidores, all of them, the civil registry. Yes, it has a lake… for going around on reed boats. It has a lake, it's certain. After it had houses, corrals too. They'd set fire to it, set fire to it… Why? Why did they set fire to it? I'm, I'm telling you wrongly… this was a thousand… no, no, no… 1464 it is. Afterward, in that… in that parish, in that church, they say the priest they had… The priest, "Go to the priest", and a marriage came too, from the Lifonso family. The Lifonso family is from the same community, from the same place… in this pueblo. They'd requested it, so that they could get married. So that they could marry. "Go to the priest." They say that before there was a custom, his sacristan… so that the woman could get married, you had to leave the bride eight days, they say, eight days beforehand. For example, you [points to interviewers] want to get married. Then you go to write to the father, the priest. With the date, everything. Then, you go to leave your woman with the priest. You…only you [points to Kazmira] can go. Eight days. Eight days you'll stay, it's just… She'll stay eight days. They say the priest had to inaugurate the bride first… They say she had to stay for that. But the priest, no… he'd said it was so. "She has to confess, she has to learn to pray. Under that condition. She has to pray, she has to learn to pray and confess. That's why the bride has to stay, she'll learn in eight days." But meanwhile, they say that the priest was violating her, the woman, the bride. He who'd left her, the groom, got suspicious: "Why is he taking away the woman? Why is he keeping here? Gracious, why? What happened? I can't leave her, because my bride is still a virgin, how then?…"

And he left her, and looked curiously through the window, I don't know from where it would have been. He'd been listening. They say the priest was already violating the bride. They say it was for that. And one of the Lifonso family said: "Damn it, this priest," and they broke down the door. And they'd killed the priest, assassinated him. They'd assassinated the priest, they'd killed him. And so, this priest… "It's not possible that he'd do those things." And all the community of Sullka Titi, all of Cuypa here, Qhunqhu, I don't know where else, they say, my father use to tell this there. They say that they'd beheaded the priest, they say they chopped him up. They cut off his head, hands, legs, body, they say. Piece by piece. They say that those of Sullka Titi took away the head. It's in the place called Palli marka, they say, the priest's head. Our fathers, our grandfathers. Palli marka is the name of a hill, a… a small hill. In Titiri. Sullka Titi Titiri, there they say the head of the priest is buried. Then, the remains of him, I don't know now, I've forgotten. They say that they took him away piece by piece, they say. And they say that they set fire to the church, they'd burnt it. With fire.

N: They destroyed it…

A: The houses, the houses and corrals, they say they pulled everything down. All of it destroyed. Just flattened. The church too was flattened. There they'd existed priests, priests, or better said the saints, they say. "These are idols." Those idols, those from here, from Omasuyos province... They say that Omasuyos province too Mama Santa Lucía, the saint. Santa Lucía. They say that the mama was huge. The saint, of plaster... Those of Omasuyos province took Santa Lucía, they said, to that side. Toward Janq'u Layme, over there. They say they took her over there. Exaltación, Father San Exaltación. Saint Exaltación, they… they took to Tiahuanaco. Here in Tiahuanaco is Exaltación. He is the patron saint of Tiahuanaco now. That one went from here, from Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka. He existed there, he was there they say, Exaltación. Yes. Then another one, San Antonio. Another father, San Antonio, they say, his feast is on 17th January, his day. That-one was taken to Caquiaviri, in Pacaje province. He is in Caquiaviri, San Antonio. Over the other side. They took those saints from here.

N: Yes, not one is left?

E: No. So that there's nothing, not a church nor a priest, nor a saint.

N: But here in Qhunqhu is there no saint?

E: Nothing remained, nothing for Qhunqhu. For Qhunqhu not one single saint remained, not one remained. They took away all of them… to different places... Janq'u Laime, Santa Lucia, Tiahuanaco, Caquiaviri. Then, as I keep saying, as they'd pulled down the houses, corrals, and burnt the church, everything, everything. The lakes too, everything is abandoned now, only a little exists… exists.. In Huancané too he died for having dug up potatoes where Alejandro's house is. There behind is my plot of land (qallpa). I have three plots in Huancané. Huge plots, really good ones.

N: It's a plot, isn't it?

X: It's mine, that one. Well, this Alejandro abused me a lot… he doesn't recognize me [my rights]. Of the plots, Whew… I have a big one in Huancané. It's my own, and called Qasa Qallpa... Qasa Qallpa. Mm… yes… Well it's the respect of Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka.

N: But I have one question about Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka… this story you wanted to tell is before (?) Qhunqhu Huancané and Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka, this same village was very important, wasn't it? Like Jesús de Machaqa is now, more or less.

X: Jesus de Machaqa is [came] after Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka.

N: Yes, exactly.

X: Jesus de Machaqa is [came] after Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka.

X: Yes, this Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka has a great/long history.

N: Yes.

X: There is a book, a book.

N: Yes, yes.

X: It's from…1644.

N: Yes.

X: Don Primitivo has this book.

N: Yes.

X: Primitivo López was at Julio's, and Julio says: ¿Don't you see?

N: Ah yes, Julio Colmena.

X: Julio's son has it.

N: Oh, ok.

X: I would like you to see it, its nice, it's the history of…

N: Yes?

X: [In] there (the book?) exists in Qhunqhu San Salvador.

N: Ah, yes.

X: They say it was Qhunqhu San Salvador, that Ch'auch'aKullamarka.

N: Oh ok, so…

X: It's name...

N: Because sometimes the people talk about Qhunqhu San Salvador, but nobody knows, we don't know that it's San Salvador, Qhunqhu San Salvador.

X: That Ch'auch'aKullamarka had been Qhunqhu, it was Qhunqhu.

N: San Salvador.

X: San Salvador. It was [like] a great village, with a great marka (?). Like a father. Like a mother, you might say.

N: Yes, like father and mother.

X: That it was, for that now it's called Qhunqhu San Salvador

N: Aha, ok.

X: Yes.

N: For that.

X: This name Ch'auch'a Kullamarka, that's it. This name comes from Ch'auch'a Kullamarka. And Jesús de Machaqa is [more] recent. Recent, after Ch'auch'a Kullamarka it is. Afterwards.

N: Ok, so the power [they say], it was in the chacra (?) before.

X: Yes, if they hadn't set fire to it, if they hadn't killed the priest, there could have been a large pueblo here.

N: Yes, the center, right?

X: The center, yes… Now, who was the cause of that, of pulling it down, of setting fire to it, of burning the church, the parish, of killing the priest. The Lifonzo family.

N: Ah, Lifonzo.

X: Familia Lifonzo.

N: Is that Paulino?

X: Paulino Lifonzo, his grandfather Casimiro. Casimiro Lifonzo… a nd there is also Carmelo Lifonzo. That's who assassinated him. Carmelo Lifonzo.

N: Ah, ok…

X: His father, Fortunato Lifonzo, Reymundo Lifonzo. That's who they are… and that, that's the reason, the consequence of this is we have not been a village up until now.

N: Yes… they got rid of him, no?

X: [Yes].

N: But now they also have something in Qhunqhu, right? Huancané is like a political center now, isn't it?

X: Yes.

N: With the elections, all of that.

X: Now there is that lake. Well, we are thinking a little of digging it up. With a bulldozer, with mechanical drills. With a team, so that it is deep. A big lake. Sometimes, around now, there is the festive opening (Sp. entrada), with reed boats (in a balseada). We know how to make reed boats from there in Chhijchha, from Desaguadero. The trucks bring the reed boats here. Of totora reeds. There they do the rounds with the reed boats, the morenada (a dance) goes there, in the opening.

N: That is the lake that you can see in the southern part of the site of Huancané? Or are they thinking of doing this?

X: It just dries up by itself. With the drought… We fill it up with the irrigation channels (larqa). So, when it gets lower and lower, it just disappears by itself.

N: Yes, but this lake, you can see it at the south of Huancané, no?

X: Yes.

N: The southern part of the site.

X: Yes.

N: A big lake.

X: Yes.

N: They've used it for the rafts before?

X: Yes.

N: Oh, ok…interesting. I'm going to translate [for Kaz:] You know that lake in Jesus de Machaqa? That's like a symbol it seems…he was talking about the lake in Ch'auch'a de Kullamarka too; it seems to be like a symbol of being a center.

X: It goes into a tube, underground. The same as in Huancané, it goes underground doesn't it. The same. Mm... When, so now we're going to work it ... Kullamarka… A big works. But suppose…there's gold there (hay oro!). Yes one of my family… has seen gold, but we haven't been able to work out where it is. But now we want to take it out, but we can't! I don't know, we might destroy the land in vain. But he saw it clearly that time. But that person could take me, and say, "It was there, it was there." We could excavate, even for a week, damn it, some three days, with picks and gibbets, so. We could take it out. But that person who saw it, he died. He is no more. Now there's no one to show us. Now let's go on to Pukara?

N: Yes, let's go on to that.